EPISODE SUMMARY: On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism, we speak to Daniel Glenn, an architect from the Crow tribe in Montana who leads a firm based in Seattle, Washington specializing in culturally and environmentally responsive architecture and planning.
GUESTS: Daniel Glenn
Jade Kake v/o: Tēnā koutou katoa
Nau mai haere mai ki te Indigenous Urbanism, Aotearoa Edition, Episode 17.
I’m your host Jade Kake and this is Indigenous Urbanism, stories about the spaces we inhabit, and the community drivers and practitioners who are shaping those environments and decolonising through design.
On this episode of Indigenous Urbanism we speak to Daniel Glenn, an architect from the Crow tribe of Montana who leads a firm based in Seattle, Washington specialising in culturally and environmentally responsive architecture and planning.
JK: Do you want to start off by just telling us who you are and what you do?
Daniel Glenn: Yeah, I'm Daniel Glenn, I'm an architect based in Seattle now, originally from Montana, the Crow Reservation. Crow, we call ourselves Apsáalooke, in our language. I've really been focussing on tribal work for most parts of my career. Starting very young. My current firm, it's called 7 Directions Architects and Planners. We're a small firm, and we're working with tribes around our region in Washington, but also we have projects in California, we have a new one in Alabama. So we work in many parts of what we call Indian Country in the United States, primarily.
JK: What brings you here to Aotearoa?
DG: Well, this is my second trip. I was invited here two years ago to be part of this first Indigenous design conference. I was quite surprise actually, the first time I got the invitation. I didn't know anything about this place. I thought, the only thing I knew about New Zealand was Whale Rider, and the Māori. Which was one of kids' favourite movies, and I remember when I first met you I thought wow, you look like the girl in Whale Rider. But I thought, well that would be great, and I wasn't quite sure how they found me, but I agreed to come, and came with my partner Valerie. I was just taken by the place, and by the people, and I guess the significant thing was, when I came here I thought it would be an exciting trip, I would meet some interesting people, I would see some things, but I honestly didn't see how it would resonate directly with what I do, because it's such a different culture, a different place. And I think that's been the biggest revelation, is that the Māori are a colonised people, just like my own tribe and North American Native Americans, and First Nations peoples, and we share so many similar challenges and experiences and also, I think, opportunities, with the power of these cultures that we work within and are part of. Because of that I want to keep that relationship going, and keep that connection, and was very delighted to come back for the second annual.
JK: Yeah, I felt similarly when I saw your work, as you were talking about your process of working with communities, and the kind of things that were important to them, and the kind of buildings and environments that we're developed as a result. There's a lot of similarities with what we're trying to do and what we are doing. And so that was kind of a surprise, because again, I mean, we have the same context of colonisation, but the cultures are quite different. But it's been really affirming, I think, as we've started developing this community, and seeing the ways that we can support one another, really cool. So it's great to see you here again.
DG: Well thank you. Yeah, I would say there's more affinity, I've seen, now that I work on a Pacific coast, there's more direct affinity culturally, in some respects, with Māori, in terms of, in comparison to where I'm from, we're a buffalo people and horse people. So we don't have this strong connection to the sea, and like the whole. The Salish we're working with, they have the canoe journey and the strong connection to the canoe culture, and even the longhouse has real similar relationships to the whare here, and the way the marae is set up resonates with the communities that I'm working with. I do see some cultural parallels, but certainly very distinct in so many other ways.
JK: So I was really fortunate to come and visit you at your place last year. So we had a small group go on a bit of a study tour around Seattle and then onward to Vancouver to see Patrick, and then over to Ottawa for the symposium where we all gathered. Now when we were with you in Seattle, we had an amazing whirlwind two days, I think it was, and we saw a great many things. But I wondered if we could talk about maybe some of those projects.
DG: Yeah. Let's see, I think we started with the Puyallup, The Place of Hidden Waters. Yeah. So, it was exciting for me to be able to have visitors come all the way from New Zealand, and to bring them to that community. And when I told, talked to the tribe and said that you might be coming, they were excited about it too. And if you recall Annette Bryant, whose now a Council member of the Puyallup tribe, she was our client when we designed the building as the head of the housing authority. So she welcomed your delegation in a beautiful ceremony, which I was very happy to have that happen while you were there. Cause I always feel like we can't ever match ourselves the welcome that we receive here. But they welcomed you with song, and drums, so I'm glad that happened. And I'm glad you got to see in person, cause I'd shown the film, that certainly your viewers are welcome to see, there's this short clip of the Place of Hidden Waters, so you can actually see where we were. So I'm curious to hear your impressions in person, cause you saw it on film and then you saw it in person, what did you take away from that?
JK: Yeah so I think the way it was designed really resonated with us around how we plan our papakāinga, which usually involves housing alongside other communal facilities integrated with the landscape as well. There's the community centre at the middle, which I believe was a basketball gymnasium or something that's been extended?
DG: It was an old gymnasium that was just almost defunct, it was a concrete block structure and had been built there to serve a youth home that was on the site, for troubled youth that had been there. And then that was adjacent to 27 townhomes that were also sort of, they were still occupied and everything, but there's a lot of issues in the community with crime and with drugs, and challenges that they were facing, when we started the project. So yeah, the community's, we went through a process and one of the key questions at the beginning was, what do we do with that old gym? Do we keep it, do we take it down? And then actually what we came to, is we realised wait a minute, this is, the gym is, first of all it's a solid structure, it's large. We analysed it economically, it made sense to keep it, but also we realised that traditionally in the Salish culture, when they would expand a longhouse they just extend it longer, and make an additional space for additional families. Sometimes up to like fifth of a mile or more of longhouse. So we took that idea and expanded by extending it out and creating that, whole sort of living room, as we thought of it for the eventually 47 units that we created there.
JK: And those units, they're a mixture of different sizes?
DG: Yeah, so, the original development has two- and three- bedroom town homes, and some fours. So when we designed this, one of the needs that they had was housing for elders, seniors in the community, and so in our process that there was not a desire on the part of the elders to be isolated, like to have just elders community and then families. So, we developed this typology that kind of came about from the program, but also studying the archetype, which is what we often like to begin with, studying the tradition of the tribe, and that case the longhouse or plank house structure, which in that region was a shed, single slope roof. And when we were analysing that we realised that there was many ways that we could manipulate that structure, that form, but in section it worked to sort of get at that form, we found that if we had one side one storey, and the other side two-storey, we could create that overall concept of the longhouse. And so that gave us the opportunity on the one side to have flats that are for elders, fully accessible. And then on the other side, two storey town homes for families. So it's a mix. And then they share this long gathering space in the middle that's akin to the longhouse itself. So, historically, those structures had shared central long spaces that had fires along them, and each family had a fire in the middle, and then they had their sleeping spaces on platforms that were elevated, and they used woven mats to create privacy. So we took that idea of those sleeping spaces, and in a modern context made those into homes. So, townhouses, with the central common semi-covered open space. So, yeah, it was a mix of inter- multi-generational housing, which is something that we like to do, and it's reflecting the needs of these communities that we work with. So we ended up building, each building has ten units in it. Five elders, five families. We built two of these structures, so there's twenty altogether, and then the 27 we renovated and improved. So it's a 47 unit community, with the community centre at the heart, which includes now a refurbished gymnasium, and a gathering space. And then the other key part of it was that it's adjacent to a forest that is a slope down to the Puget Sound, because they're Salmon people and their very protective of the water. That was a big challenge of how to make this place in a way that would not disrupt the, or hurt harm the waters that were there. So, we went through a, we worked very closely with our landscape architect, and our civil engineers, to create a landscape that, all the water is dealt with through rain gardens that you saw. We walked around and took a walk through the forest. So we preserved two thirds of the site as forested land.
JK: That project, that reservation land it's in a kind of an urban area. Were there any kind of unique challenges or opportunities with being in more of an urban setting?
DG: Well, what's interesting is that the Puyallup peoples were, their homeland was essentially built on top of, by the City of Tacoma. Which is based on the word Tahoma, which the Puyallup refer to the Mount Tahoma, which is called Mt Ranier. And Mt Ranier as Tahoma is considered sort of the mother of the Puyallup people and the people of that region. So that community is, even though it's a forested setting near the water, it's actually in the suburbs of the City of Tacoma, and all the land around them is non-Native land. So what the tribe, the tribe has been buying or holding parcels, kind of scattered all over the city, and that was one of these smaller parcels. So initially when, it was interesting when we went back there, Annette Bryant was talking about how the homes, the lots across the street were empty when we built. And there was a lot of concern among the neighbourhood about that development, and they didn't. They considered it bringing down the property values for all the white families. But when we rebuilt this, and created this community, it transformed the place in many different ways. Apparently property values went way up, and so, right across the street they built new homes, and they're like half million dollar houses.
JK: Self-gentrifying by accident. Just cause the quality was too good.
DG: Well but yeah. But what's unfortunate was that the tribe, had they had the opportunity, I'm sure they would have done it, would have bought those vacant parcels, prior to the development, so that. So it's true, I mean there was some level. But the irony is, that you would never imagine that a low income Native community would be a gentrifier in any way. But it is considered beautiful by the people around it, and you know, so I guess it's had that impact.
JK: Well the next place I think we went was it Skokomish reservation?
JK: And we went to see the new community centre that was under construction, which I hear has opened late last year.
JK: Did you want to tell us a bit more about that project?
DG: Yeah, so another tribe in the region, this one's further South of Puget Sound, it's on the very end of, it's called the Hood Canal, it's West of Olympia in Washington. The Skokomish reservation. It's a relatively isolated community. It's a small fishing community, fishing and shellfish gathering community. And they've been doing that for thousands of years, and they're still doing it, it's still the primary income of the tribe. And it was quite a challenge initially, coming from the outside into this little community. They're very reserved, and a little understandably nervous about outsiders in general. And I'm sure you're familiar with the process of the early engagement, and getting to know everyone, and relationship building is fundamental to what we do, and having that strong connection. But it was a process we had to go through. What we initially were asked to do a masterplan, because the rivers, the Skokomish River that flows into the Sound, has been disrupted by all the development, and the way it's been affected by that, it's actually started to have quite a flooding issue. So, even though they've been in this area for a millenia, they're particular area where their homes are, and their facilities, are getting flooded on a regular basis. So a key part of the project was to move from that low land up to higher ground, and we designed a masterplan that includes a new tribal administration building, and a new clinic, and a forestry department, and their police station, and all of this. As well, at the heart of it they wanted a community centre. And so, the community centre was phase one. And as you saw, a key part of the project at the end was a strong integration of the artists. We were very excited and impressed to learn that there's so many significant and talented artists among the Skokomish people. Similar to the Māori here.
JK: It was interesting for our group, because after we went to see the building, we went and visited the carver at his whare, and in his garage which is his carving studio, there's a tino flag hanging up, and we were like, ohh, who gave you that? So, yeah, I forget who it was, but he obviously -
DG: Rangi. Rangi Kipa.
JK: Yeah! Who's here, okay.
DG: Yeah, this world is extraordinarily small. So Rangi has been, when I first came here two years ago, I realised that I met Rangi when we were on our tour around the North Island, and we went to his studio. In fact he made this for me, I forget the hook, how we say it in Māori. I got this at his studio, and we connected because he knew John Edward Smith, who we were working with already on some early concepts around the carvings that would go in that building. And so, Rangi had been there, now been there twice, as an artist in resident, working with John Smith and several other Skokomish and Salish carvers in the region, on a project. It's called the Basket House, or the Fabric Arts Studio, for Evergreen College. And we're not the architects for that, one of my Indigenous colleagues, John Paul Jones, designed that. And we visited as well, the longhouse there that he designed. And so he, it's amazing that the Basket House, it's a Māori and Salish collaboration, and it includes carvings from both traditions, and John was talking about how Rangi was teaching them all these techniques, and it's affecting his carving, and his approach.
JK: It was so amazing to hear actually, and we were like, wow, the carvers are about 8 years ahead of us. But that's alright, we'll get there.
DG: You mean in terms of collaboration?
DG: Yeah! No, exactly. Yeah, I was astounded. And I mean that keeps happening, like we have Squaxin Island tribal member here, and it seems so far away, and yet there's all these strong connections. And I know that, what I've learned is that the Salish communities and other tribes I've worked with, the Tolowa in Northern California have been here, there's a real strong admiration and desire to learn from the Māori in our communities. Because we feel you're way ahead of the game in terms of your political power in community, and also your very strong focus on the language, and keeping the culture strong. So, for us, we come here to learn from you, and try to understand how you're doing all this. And so many tribes are doing that, not just our community.
JK: Yeah. I think it's been a really nice reciprocal process too. Because I think often there's the assumption that Māori are further ahead in a lot of things, just cause of our political status. But actually there's a lot of things where we're way behind. And so I've done a lot of work in housing, so it was really fantastic to go and see housing projects over in Canada and the US, and see that, actually, there's some really innovative models and things that are a lot better than anything we've been able to achieve yet. So, a lot to learn from each other.
DG: Well I'm really curious, I know you went out in the middle of, what I consider the middle of nowhere, in New Mexico, to see the Nageezi House, which we designed when I was at Arizona State University. I was a faculty running a centre there, a design centre. Back in 2005 we designed and built that home, as a model house. I'm really curious to hear what you thought, to go, it was quite a journey. I was impressed that you went all the way there.
JK: So we went on a wild journey, where we drove, we saw Joseph and Nathaniel and so on in Phoenix, and visited some projects, and we drove through the desert, through to Farmington. Spent the night. So I was the driver.
DG: And you went in the night?
JK: Ah no, it was all through the day.
DG: Oh wow. It's beautiful.
JK: Yeah, and we stopped in the Painted Desert, it was a beautiful road trip. And the landscape was so amazing because each time you would go a little further, and it would change quite drastically. It's nothing like what we have here. Anyway, so it was a phenomenal experience, and then we drove from Farmington to Nageezi. And went to see the whānau there, and visit them at their home. Yeah, it was amazing to be able to visit someone on Navajo Nation, and actually kind of see how they live, and spend time with the family. And so they just showed us around their house, and talked about it, and it's funny because I feel like, you get a different perspective when you just spend time with the residents of places, rather than the architects. So, they were kind of funny because they were, first they just raved about all the things they loved, and then they were quite honest about the things that didn't quite work.
DG: Oh that's so cool.
JK: Yeah, so it was really cool when, you know how there's the sort of, the courtyard.
DG: The courtyard, yeah.
JK: And he's like, oh do you want to see something cool? And he opened up all of the doors and things. Cause the cross -
DG: Yeah. Ventilation, and the light as well, we designed it that way.
JK: And then the structure, I'm sorry I'm a bit ignorant of the name, but the structure that's over the courtyard, that sort of -
DG: It's based on the hogan, which is the traditional home of the Navajo. And Mary, who you met, grew up in a Hogan right near there. It's actually her husband Kee Augustine, who sadly passed away just a few years ago, but we designed it for those two elders and their family. But they both grew up in Hogans. In fact, Kee did not speak English at all. When we were designing that project, fortunately we had Navajo students of architecture on our team. So, and I speak Spanish, and Kee speaks Spanish and Diné, but not English. So we would interact with him that way. Mary, who taught school, she speaks English as you know, talking with her. And it's delightful to me that she's still living there. I mean, that was 13 years ago now, and you know, it's heartening for us when we do this kind of work. And she's had visitors from literally all over the world, I mean you weren't the first to arrive from -
JK: No, we got that sense.
DG: Did she say that?
JK: Oh, but we were welcomed very warmly into their home.
DG: Oh, that's wonderful.
JK: Her and her son Jimmy, who's right next door.
DG. Yeah. The funniest story about that project was we designed it to be as low energy as possible, with the orientation, and passive solar, and all of that. And then we used a material called Navajo flexcrete, which was just being developed by the Navajo Nation. And I'm actually on the Board now of Navajo flexcrete, a volunteer member to help them. And that particular project was the very first Navajo flexcrete house built by the tribe.
JK: Have there been many others since then?
DG: Yeah, since then they're built hundreds of other homes. Not, unfortunately, as culturally responsive. A lot of them have been more conventional, there's been some that have had other aspects to them. But energy wise they have similar performance, quite extraordinary. It's a challenge. We've found dealing with any institution of transitioning, cause they'd always built out of stick frame, which in the desert is crazy, to build out of stick frame. It's terrible environmentally, in terms of it, it doesn't have any mass, so you can't use it for passive solar.
JK: What did they do before that?
DG: Well the home that Mary and Kee lived in was a wood frame structure. It was built in the 1960s, and it was, it had black mold in the house, it was heated by a single wood stove.
JK: Are these HUD homes?
DG: That particular one was built in the sixties with dollars from HUD and through the tribal housing authority, so we call the HUD homes.
JK: So we were saying that the homes built in the 50s and 60s.
DG: Yeah, so those were typically built in wood frame. Actually, the 60s, 70s, 80s, all the way up till now. You know, that was kind of the standard thing. And I sort of grew up in an office, we were doing work, through my father's office. And we even did work in Arizona, and so the homes at that time were, the plans and everything were essentially dictated by Washington DC, so.
DG: Yeah, the tribes had no say, and even as architects we had very little say, we had to just sort of locate them in different locations. And they were not climactically responsive, they weren't culturally responsive. That particular house by this point was in great decay. They had done a lot of additions, and there was kind of pieced together. And when the students, Navajo students of architecture, approached us, they had talked about the idea of renovating that house. We were working with a student named Christopher Billy, whose now a photographer. But he was an architecture student at that time, from that area. So he approached us, our centre, and said he was interested in us helping them out some way, and that he had a waiting list of people that needed homes. So we went and visited that site. You know, they had talked about renovating it, but we said, this is not a renovatable project. So we had to discuss the idea of tearing it down and rebuilding it on the old slab that was there. And it was interesting, the elders, the family agreed to the whole thing, but then we had to run it by the Council. Which was in the Chapter House nearby there in Nageezi, I don't know if you went to their Chapter House?
JK: We drove past it.
DG: Yeah. We presented what were were going to do, and it was really interesting because there was this sort of murmur and stuff in the crowd, and it was all in Diné, so I had no idea what they were talking about. But they seemed kind of upset, and we didn't know what was going on. And then we, you know I'm like, what's happening here? It turned out that a few years earlier, there'd been a Christian missionary group that had been working in that area, and they had volunteered to help somebody with their house, and they basically tore out a whole bunch of stuff, the kitchen and everything, and then they were going to make it all better, and improve it. They got only like half way done, and then they had to leave. Like, their time was up. And they just left. And so, this poor family was left with this kind of -
JK: Ruins of a house.
DG: Ruins of a house. So there was a lot of skepticism, and sadly in Indian Country, in our communities, that kind of thing isn't uncommon. So people are very justifiably skeptical. So I had to get up and make this whole speech about, we're with Arizona State University, and we have the backing of the University, and we would never. You know, if we tear this house down we're building you a new house, and all this stuff.
JK: Building that trust takes a little while.
DG: Yeah. It was a challenge. And so, they believed us, fortunately, and it was largely I think due, not to us but to the students that we had working with us. Because they were, had that trust, they had that connection. And so, we proceeded, and we built the home. And it was part of this larger effort to promote the use of this new material, is aerated concreted. In Europe it's very common, but very uncommon in the United States. Wood in the desert there, it gets eaten by termites, it has no benefit from a, to help the houses keep cool. So they're overheating, or your using huge amounts of air conditioning or heating. As you recall, you're at 6,000 feet on a mesa, so it snows and is very cold in the winter, and in the summer it's like hot desert, hundred degrees. So for us, when we design there, we did an energy model of the home. I was working with Ernesto Fonseca, who's a Mexican architect who at the time was a graduate student there, working for us. So his thesis was actually on that house, and he did a whole monitoring of, and analysed it, and wrote a paper on it. He's put all these sensors throughout the home for a year, and then as we built it we'd put these sensors in. And then we monitored it remotely from Phoenix. That was, oh that was what I was going to mention, was that at some point we had this big spike in energy, and we were like, what is going on there?
JK: Did you give them a call?
DG: No we actually went out there, we were like what's going on, we thought there was some problem. And it was so funny, because we get to the site, there literally was a very long extension cord, going from Mary's house to the other son, on the other side. So there's Jimmy and Kenny on either side, and they live on either side of the home, because it's their allotted land. So the family lives there. And they had, somebody hadn't paid the bill or whatever for the power, so they were using the power from that house to keep their house going.
JK: That would have thrown out your data.
DG: Yeah. But it also showed, I think, something fundamental that we learned there. I mean, first of all this beautiful, it's like a family compound. Her adult sons live on either side of her, and they have this land. And that's why I think this idea of permanence is critical, and that we design for the very long term. But also, they support each other, like you saw, they're helping Mary now as she's getting quite old. And you know, there's a very strong spiritual aspect. When we initially designed the home, talked about the hogan, and do they want just sort of a modern version of the hogan, does it make sense? They wanted a connection to the hogan, but they didn't want to go back to living in a hogan. They'd been living in a more conventional house with bedrooms, and privacy, and a different sense of. A hogan is a single circular space. It's very much like a yurt, and there's apparently some potential links to that. Cause the Navajo are actually Athabaskan. They speak the same language as the Athabaskans up in Northern Alaska. And so they have a very direct connection over the land bridge and all of that, historically. And so that language has migrated all the way down. And what's ironic is now we're working with the Tolowa in Northern California, and they also speak, they call themselves the Dee-ni', and they speak the Diné language as well, which is Athabaskan. So these connections we're constantly finding as we work with different tribes. One thing I would love to hear your thoughts on was that, part of our goal is that when we design for different tribes, is that we're designing for that tribe, for that place. And so, I'd like to hear your thoughts of how you felt comparing the two, like going among the Navajo to the Puyallup, and the different buildings and how they're designed to each. I mean, did you see that intent?
JK: Yeah, I really enjoyed getting to understand some of these more traditional typologies, and how that thinking has carried through to create contemporary models. Cause that's a real focus of my approach too, is thinking about, what is the best of how we used to live in the past, what are we hearing from the way our elders lived, what is our land telling us, and then, how can we take the best of new technology and knowledge and information to adapt to our current context to create new ways of living. And I think that those concepts are really exemplified in those projects that you've shown us.
DG: Great. I mean that's really a key thing for us, is this notion of tribal specificity, and regional specificity responding to each climate, each culture, each place, in a very distinct way. And building off of those traditions, but not being afraid at all to embrace modern technologies, like this aerated concrete, or the SIPS panels that we build the Puyallup home out of. I mean, the town homes there. Which is also part of the indigenous tradition of embracing things as they come, like the canvas, I mean from Buffalo hide, to canvas, for our tipi lodges. It's a transition that we make as we gain new access to different materials. Or going from quill work to beadwork. Cause we had quill, all the beadwork we see in North America was not traditional, it was quill work with guide quills that were woven. But when the Europeans came, we started utilising beads that we were able to get from -
JK: And acknowledging that our cultures have always been adaptive, and embracing of technology, and able to evolve, and knowing that we don't want to live in a museum piece.
DG: Exactly. That's right.
JK: Our people don't want that.
DG: Yeah. And that was very important for us to learn. We were talking to these elders, cause you know, they might have grown up in a hogan, and they love the hogan and they use the hogan now as a spiritual place. That particular family. And/or in their sheep camps. Like many Navajo have sheep camps, even the students we were working with, the Navajo students, spent their summers in the sheep camps with their grandparents. In hogans. So they're still living in them, which is beautiful, that tradition. We don't, like our tipi lodges, we only camp in them, like pow wows and gatherings, but it's not like a, it's primarily ceremonial, and it's not somewhere where you actually live. But the hogan is a living home still. But, there's also this desire to have wifi, and have all of the other things that modern living affords. But still embracing and celebrating and being strongly connected to our cultures.
JK: One final question - the theme of the podcast is Indigenous Urbanism, and the way our Indigenous communities are shaping their physical environments. So did you have any final thoughts?
DG: Well, we're actually in the process of trying to learn again from your communities, like the experience in Auckland with the Māori design principles that are being put in place there, and we're very interested in trying to bring similar approaches to decolonising our cities. In the United States, the majority now of the Native community lives in cities. Part of that was by design, in the 50s and 60s there was a whole effort to get people off the reservation and move them to cities, and so there was this big internal migration. Myself now as an urban Indian living in Seattle Washington, far from my traditional land, connecting with all these, there's many different tribes living in Seattle and places like that. So there's two things there. It's the challenge of creating places that feel like home for urban Indians, and dealing with the challenges, like homelessness which is significant, the Native community is the highest representative population of homeless in Seattle. But, also having an impact on the City as a whole, and saying, how do we demonstrate and celebrate, make a strong presence, of that Salish culture that's been there for thousands of years, and has largely been erased by the settlement process. So I think that that's something, it's a part of our job, in our own communities, is bringing that voice back to our cities, and having that presence. When I've met with the City of Seattle, and planning leadership and talked about this, it's a challenge, because planners think in numbers. Like, whoever shouts the loudest. So if you have a majority of people, that's who tends to get listened to. And we don't have those numbers. We don't have those numbers, so there's very small numbers in urban, comparatively to the larger, majority population. So what I try to talk about, is that we don't have numbers but we have centuries, and millenias of time. So, this notion of the weight of time, that presence sort of supercedes the small numbers that we currently have. And say, how can we bring the power of that ten thousand years, or 15 thousand years of presence, to the forefront in our cities. And I think it will profoundly affect not only the Indigenous communities, but for the Pākehā people in our communities. The idea that it's a wonderful thing, that they'll know that they're in a special unique place, and that's part of what gives it uniqueness, and moves beyond the sort of sameness, this kind of overriding sameness of consumer culture and colonial spaces.
JK v/o: You can find out more about Daniel’s work at 7directionsarchitects.com.
This episode was recorded on location at Nā Te Kore, the second international indigenous designers hui hosted by Ngā Aho in March 2018.
Indigenous Urbanism Aotearoa Edition is a production of Te Matapihi. Sandy Wakefield does our sound recording, editing, and mixing. Our theme was composed by Thomas Burton. I’m Jade Kake, your host and Executive Producer.
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Coming up next on Indigenous Urbanism, we travel to Porirua to learn about Imagining Decolonised Cities, a project designed to stimulate discussion around what our cities could look, feel, sound, taste and smell like if they were decolonised.
Rebecca Kiddle: People understand Māoriness to be a rural thing, it's not an urban thing,
it’s not something that’s relevant to the city. And that’s problematic in two ways. First of all it kind of dismisses the mana of the iwi and hapū for whom these places are theirs, so Te Atiawa, Ngāti Toa, Ngāti Whātua in Auckland, and so on. It mean that their identity aren't represented well in the built environment. And I think the second thing is really about a sort of general kind of erasure of indigeneity in the built environment.